Design x Joey Banks
Product Designer on Design Systems at Twitter
Illustration by Bonnie Kate Wolf
Interview conducted by Michelle Berois on May 22, 2020
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
I’m from Columbus, Ohio, so I’m a Midwestern guy. I started off as a mechanical engineering student at Miami University in Cincinnati. I loved the theories, the math, and the hands-on aspect of it all, but I didn’t love the outcomes. Especially in Ohio, a lot of folks were going directly to Proctor & Gamble or doing a lot of factory work. There’s definitely something there to appreciate about it, but it just wasn’t resonating with me.
I found my way to design because my roommate was in the design program. He became one of my best friends and was always up late working on projects, but he loved coding a lot more. I wanted to try my hand at helping him with the design. I just fell in love with it and that’s where it all started.
Did you end up switching to design school at that point?
I switched over to the design school after my third year of mechanical engineering. First semester of senior year, ten of us were selected to come to San Francisco to find a co-op or an internship in two weeks. We didn’t know anyone or have any connections, so it was our responsibility to find those. That taught me so much about networking. I was grabbing coffee with people all over San Francisco. It was exhausting but also amazing to have the excuse to get to meet so many people. It gave me a lot of encouragement.
I was reaching out to people who I never imagined would read my email, let alone get back to me or say yes. It made me even more excited for the future of this career. That’s why I love doing things like this—I don’t know if my stories are at all interesting, but I love giving back in that way just to be able to help others.
The program turned out to be a really good experience. We were taking Scoots around the city to get to every coffee meeting. It made it really easy and fun to explore the city, but I began to notice that the Scoot app was a bit unclear. It didn’t feel like there was a lot of design love in it at the time. The company was pretty new, and they seemed like they were trying to get their product off the ground, not yet at a point where they could add in small delightful interactions or other ways to step up the app. I looked them up on LinkedIn and saw that they didn’t have any designers on their team, so I decided to do something really scary. I worked on an unsolicited redesign.
I realized that it was hard to get a Scoot at the time if you were going longer distances. It involved calculating distances and battery life, and it could be a bit confusing. I threw together a quick mock of what it could look like to tap and reserve a Scoot based on where you’re heading. My goal was to show them that I really cared about the product and the experience. They got back to me and were interested in talking about an internship and it evolved from there.
It was an amazing but scary experience. A lot of my peers were going to large companies like Uber and Facebook. I was the only one who was going to a really small startup, and being the only designer was a lot of pressure.
I think there’s always two paths to follow when you first start out, and neither is right or wrong. Do you go to a large company where there is opportunity for a lot of mentorship? Or do you go to a small startup, where you might be the only designer, but the chance that you will make an impact is much higher?
How was the experience of being the only designer there?
I struggled with self confidence a lot. There were very talented engineers and PMs who knew the product really well. I tried to listen as much as I could. I went to every meeting, even if I didn’t need to be there. I knew that my ideas might not be great, but I focused on cranking out as many as I could. I really wanted to understand how the company and all of the teams worked together. That’s how I saw my role there. I was fortunate to work on a lot of things that shipped, whether it was in the product or the app.
What would you say is a good way to overcome “imposter syndrome,” especially for new and aspiring designers?
The one thing that helps me is knowing that everyone is going through it. Even the most talented, experienced people have gone through it. As someone just starting out, it’s all about making mistakes. It’s the mistakes that help you get there. If you’re not making mistakes, I don’t think you’re ideating enough.
At Scoot, I knew that if it didn’t work, I’d at least walk away with valuable feedback. If it did work, awesome—it could be something to include in my portfolio. I wanted to try to do as much as I could, because I knew that was the only way I was going to learn, just by doing.
After Scoot, you went to work at Virta Health. How did you make that transition?
It was definitely an abrupt transition that I wasn’t expecting. In December of 2015, I was headed home for the holiday when I started to feel intense fatigue. I was totally out of it. I ended up at the ER and was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes.
This was something new and scary that meant that my life would be forever changed. Every single aspect of my life was just flipped. I’d led a pretty healthy life up until then, but now I had to think about all these new things. I didn’t really know any other designers in healthcare, let alone any designers who had Type I diabetes.
But I try to see the bright side of things as much as I can. I knew then that I wanted to focus my efforts on healthcare or working with diabetes.
To show how valuable networking is, I found out about Virta Health through a random connection I made through Twitter. He worked at Apple at the time and had been approached by the head of design of Virta Health to see if he was interested in a job. He wasn’t interested, but I was fresh in his mind. He passed my name along, and that’s how that connection was made.
When I was interviewing with them, I was so nervous because I really wanted that job. Sometimes when you get nervous or your adrenaline goes up, you can experience low blood sugar. During that interview my blood sugar fell. One of the first symptoms for most people including myself is to start sweating quite a bit. I was already nervous for the interview and I was soaked in sweat, but they were so kind and understanding. I knew from that moment what a good fit it would be based on how compassionate, kind and thoughtful they were.
I started at Virta as their second designer, and my work focused on marketing and visual design. I was switching mediums quite a bit to try and understand what was needed. At Virta, it was all about exploring hypothetical situations and figuring out how to give the patient care in as few steps and as little time as possible. We had a similar treatment for most patients, but there were lots of small variances that would lead to different interventions.
When I started, I learned that the physicians and clinicians were working with software that was prescribed from a really large company. For the most part, every physician and clinician uses that same piece of software. They never had the chance to design how they want software to work. I really wanted to make it a goal to allow them to design their own experience. They’re doing the job, so they should be telling me what they need, and I should be using my design and product thinking skills to make that into something.
We used Figma quite a lot there, so we were able to give them the ability, for the first time in their entire career, to design what they wanted that experience to be. I really fell in love with that. It taught me a lot about listening to users and allowing them to take chances or have opportunities that they might not otherwise have.
When something was shipped, they already knew exactly how to use it. We invited them to all of our internal product meetings. It was interesting to see physicians doing their work but also participating in product meetings. That was what really inspired me at that company. It was the mingling of design, engineering, product, and user feedback that was super cool.
How did you make your way over to Figma?
I used Figma throughout my entire tenure at Virta, and I felt really inspired by the tool. Our head of design at Virta knew the head of product at Figma. They worked together back in the day. I had also started doing video tutorials for their support team to help other people learn how to use the product.
I found that to be really fun. It was a product that changed how I thought about design and feedback. Being able to invite other people into the file you’re working on was a new concept, and I wanted to share that experience with others. I got to know the Figma team, and I contemplated if it was time to move on.
It was a tough and challenging move. I was essentially moving away from product design and into a design advocate role. The role of a designer advocate is kind of ambiguous because so many things are tied into it. Being a product designer is something I really love and feel strongly about, but I also knew that I wanted the chance to show people the tool that has given me a lot of success in designing and has made me so much more appreciative of the process. So that’s how I ended up at Figma.
Can you elaborate on what being a Designer Advocate at Figma is like?
I was the third designer advocate to join the team. The position had already been created, but the role still wasn’t completely defined. It’s unique at Figma because it’s being a designer advocate for a company that makes a design tool. In this role, the day-to-day responsibilities are about meeting the community and creating resources for product education and support. My job is to help unblock users. Another thing that excited me about this role was being able to onboard companies and new designers to the tool, including large companies like Spotify, who just published their guide to Figma to show how they’ve been using it.
It’s an exciting challenge to go to a company who’s never used Figma before, show them the tool, and get them excited about it. I am also a point of contact and resource to help them figure out how they want to set up Figma and use it for themselves. Every day we’re learning about what’s working and what isn’t working. In a lot of ways, it’s almost like a research role. I’m not directly acting on the research, but I’m taking the findings back to the team. It’s so many things in one, and that’s the biggest challenge about the role. Everyday looks different.
Connecting with users and also the privilege of representing Figma is really important to me. I really care about the team and the product. I feel very lucky to be one of the people who’s part of the face of the company and the tool.
Has the role gotten you out of your comfort zone?
Even though I’m an introvert, I’ve realized that it does recharge me to meet people and talk with people. I definitely need a little bit of a break at the end of the day, but it’s exciting to be able to get to know them and see their reactions when they see what Figma can do and share their experience. It’s a big challenge for sure. I felt outside of my comfort zone every day, and that was exactly what I was looking for.
Do you think going forward that more companies are going to adopt Figma over other tools like Adobe XD or Sketch?
I think that’s always the hope. It has become apparent that people want collaborative tools like Figma, where you can have the design, the prototype, and the feedback all in that single tab. Everyone has access to the tools, and the functionality to leave feedback and see what’s going on.
Collaborating in Figma has taught me how much less surprise there is when you are able to work alongside an engineer or product manager so they can follow along and give feedback at every step. It takes a lot of the intimidation out of designing.
How different is it working for a company where the user that you’re designing for is a designer?
You know, it’s interesting. I don’t do a lot of product design work for Figma right now. I’m much more on the advocate side of listening to feedback and sharing it with the team. The feedback looks a lot different. Designers have plenty of feedback, so it’s much more prescribed.
Because you’re getting more elaborate and detailed feedback, it takes a little bit more work to extract what people are looking for. I think that’s probably the biggest challenge, trying to decipher that feedback and make the most use out of it. It’s quite different, and that’s the thing I enjoy most out of it.
Being on the other side of the tool is really interesting. To be able to learn a little bit more about why decisions were made or what’s in the future. It’s absolutely the most talented team that I’ve ever worked with. The speed at which the team moves is exciting and unbelievable.
It’s also nice to not be a designer at the moment. Being able to see everything and take part in conversations but not have the responsibility of coming up with that design. It’s a nice break and gives me a lot of other perspectives. I spend my day talking to the users and learning how they’re working.
Are there any design leaders or mentors that you follow, and why?
In design, especially, a lot of careers are built on the feedback and time of others. Maybe more so than other careers where it’s purely education or experience based. I feel so lucky that so many people have been willing to offer their time and experience. To learn from their mistakes, put that into your own career, and build upon it has been awesome.
There are people I feel very fortunate to have gotten to know. Dustin Senos is a person that comes to mind. He was a designer over at Medium for a while, and Disney before that. Dustin is one of the best listeners I’ve ever met. He genuinely listens, and that is a trait I want to emulate as much as I can.
David Hoang, Ariel Norling, and Pete Petrash are all so important to me and have had such an impact on my career. Honestly, everyone I’ve worked with. I’ve been able to work with so many talented teams and people. The designers who sat next to me sometimes are people who have offered the most to share their experiences. The first designer I met at Virta was Pete Petrash, and I owe so much to him, being able to sit behind him and see what he was working on and how he was thinking. Without that, and those kinds of experiences, it would feel like a silo.
What do you feel are some of the challenges that designers are facing right now?
This has always been true for the industry, but learning how to differentiate your products or differentiate your design is becoming more and more of a thing. There are so many companies with the same goals, especially now more than ever, just in slightly different ways. There’s so many different directions you can go. I think it’s the biggest challenge but maybe the most important.
Learning to find your own style can be challenging but really helpful. There’s so many talented designers out there who are sharing incredible work. Knowing how to practice until you can define your own style is another common challenge.
What advice would you give new and aspiring designers that are just starting to break into the design industry?
I would encourage you to reach out to people in the industry. I’ve never been so surprised to learn how generous people are with their time. Even now, hopping on a Zoom call or Google Meet session just to learn even ten minutes of their experience. I think designers are always willing to share that, and we’re generally a pretty open community. That goes so far. I also want to offer my time for anyone who’s looking for advice, feedback, or just needs a friend. Feel free to reach out! I’d love to be there for you, too.
Without that, I don’t think I would’ve ever had the confidence or courage to get into design. It was the stories and the experiences of others that really encouraged me. That really motivates me. The ability to chase someone else’s work and dream.
It can be scary to reach out to people and make new connections. But I wouldn’t be in San Francisco or at any of these amazing companies without the help or time of others. That is something I’ll never take for granted. I felt like such an imposter with barely one year of design experience in school, and I still do sometimes. That’s why it’s good to know the experiences of others and know that it’s okay to fail a little bit, to see and learn how others have failed but also see their successes. That’s pretty exciting.
I also encourage just thinking through small things. Let’s say you’re using an app. Just take five minutes to understand or try to evaluate it. We all use so many products every day. It’s trying to ingrain a little bit more curiosity into understanding what the products are doing, to invent or dissect the constraints they were up against. It’s a practice that I’m still not very good at, but it’s something that I try to do a little bit every day.
Rapid Fire Questions
What do you like to do in your free time?
I have the car bug. I like them because I’m bad at working on them. It’s a chance to get away from the computer and work with my hands a little bit.
What kind of car do you have?
I have a Mustang.
What’s your favorite book or favorite podcast?
One of my favorite podcasts is one that isn’t about design at all. It’s a show called Too Beautiful to Live. I started listening to it seven years ago, on my commute to my first internship. It’s essentially about two friends who get together five days a week and talk about life for an hour and a half or so. They’ve been doing that everyday for almost ten years now. They’re up to 3,000 episodes or something crazy like that.
It’s interesting because their personalities are so relatable. One guy is really shy and introverted. The other one is really extroverted and loud. They’re just good friends with good rapport. It’s something to take my mind off of news and work and everything. I feel like I know these two people as friends, which is kind of fun.
