Design x Sam Cabrera
President of AIGA LA
Interview conducted by Lewis Ngugi on December 6, 2021
To kick things off, tell me a bit about yourself.
My name is Sam Cabrera, she/her, and I currently reside in Los Angeles which is Tongva land (to recognize the land we occupy.) I am currently a Director of User Experience, consulting with early start-ups. I also teach at my alma mater, California State Polytechnic University-Pomona (Cal Poly Pomona), and at Santa Monica College (SMC) as an Adjunct Professor and lecturer. In my spare time, I volunteer as the President of the Los Angeles chapter of AIGA. I'm very busy.
Walk me through your time at Starbucks as a Barista, and how you got into tech. Did you know you would eventually end up in tech?
My first job was in food service at a renaissance fair before I even knew how to drive. Once I got my license, I got my first job at Starbucks. Then, later on, I went to Cal Poly Pomona to pursue a Bachelor's in Graphic Design. It was there that I got very interested in theatrical set design as I had done it a lot in high school. In theatre arts and performance arts, there is a kind of magic that comes with 10-20 people coming together to create a performance. I was almost a minor in theatre but I missed it by one or two units.
On the side, I did a couple of set designs and I would be part of the Tech side of the show. It was one of those things where I didn't think I would do it as a career, but I enjoyed it. In school, I was learning about physical set design, coding, and web design. This is before it was what it is today, before Instagram. I could do the minimum, design and code a website. Since I loved environmental design because of the way that it brings in my theatrical history, I had this grand idea that I could apply digital to physical spaces, somehow.
I didn't exactly know what or how, but it was something that could happen that I had a lot of interest in.
When I went out into the world during the recession, there weren't a lot of opportunities, especially for young designers. It was even more difficult to get into niche fields like environmental design or digital design because my portfolio didn't reflect that. It reflected some physical set design, mostly graphic design and branding. I was very motivated. I’d spent almost a year trying to get through the door so I volunteered as an event producer for AIGA because I wanted to get to know Los Angeles and the breadth of what the creative scene was like there. That was when I was able to kind of understand, “Oh if I want to work in this field, I should pursue talking to people in this company.” Then I got in the door of an architecture firm called RTKL, where I did a short stint. Later I interviewed at both Gensler and SapientNitro at the same time, two very different places which had what I wanted. SapientNitro was on the digital side while Gensler focused on environmental and graphic design. It was a really tough choice. I ended up going with Gensler since I felt that digital was something I can learn on my own while learning how to design for spaces and experiences was very particular.
While there, we did everything from the signage of football stadiums to how to get someone to the hospital quicker through signage and emergency services to more fun visual projects. From there, I tried to pursue the digital side and found that I wasn't speaking the ‘digital language’ needed to convince them that I could do it. That was when I took a part-time course in General Assembly’s User Experience Design program. It's something I had heard of and I thought, “You know what, I'm just going to use this skill to help me with my work. I'm not actually going to try to be in user experience design. I'm just gonna have this as part of my toolkit.” That's when I discovered that I loved the world of digital design. It was so much easier to build something as it was very similar to what I was doing as well; User Experience Design for spaces and digital has a lot of commonalities. That's when I decided to take the time to then dive into this digital side of the industry. So I called up the person I had interviewed with at SapientNitro three years prior and I was curious, “Hey, are you hiring?” and it turned out that they were. I interviewed with them and started working on the digital side. That's kind of how I got into tech. By way of a detour, but a relevant detour.
How did you end up teaching as well as focusing on ethics and diversity?
At Gensler, we worked on a lot of big projects and I learned a lot about accessibility. I designed a dozen bathroom signs and we had to follow the California ADA regulations and codes for signage. It was something that you were always very conscious of because we had to design and spec out these signs to comply with that. I was already learning about accessibility and it was really interesting to hear that sustainability was also a huge part of the architectural world in terms of making sure we're not adding to waste and we're using products that are better for the environment.
This was around the time I read the book Design is a Job by Mike Montero. It was really interesting. There was a time when we were working with clients, and they would make suggestions of things that I disagreed with. I was told that we provide a service, designers provide services. I remember thinking, “I don't know, I guess so in a sense that clients hire us for something”, but it seems more vital than that. Design is a Job talks a lot about how the job of a designer is to be the expert, and it's not just about service, it's also about ethics and also about responsibility, “Am I causing something to create harm or not?” This was almost like a light switch. This is not just something that someone can hire me to do. This is something that I have experienced and I have a responsibility to society to do well. So, these questions started to kick in. To top that, I experienced this a lot in my personal life, seeing people with disabilities struggling to go through this world. We also kind of have seen it for a long time. It's something that I should be an advocate for and learn more about.
When I started getting into digital design, from day one, I was trying to understand that I had come from this world where we had these very clear laws on how to create signage that's accessible. Then I asked myself, “What is ‘that’ for the digital side?” And this was before the Domino's verdict. This was before what it is today where there weren't any real tangible legal rules and no one was following anything. I thought that was strange and I took it upon myself to learn from the various sources on the Internet, like WCAG guidelines and more about accessible design for the web. I started thinking about these things because of my background. The things that I was seeing between industries, I started to see what limits designers sometimes have to be advocates for these things. So that really sort of sparked my interest.
“The latest AIGA census said that there were only 3% Black designers and 70% White.”
Can you explain what diversity is, and why it’s so crucial to promoting inclusive, equitable, and ethical design practices? Also what exactly is diversity?
I talk a lot about diversity as being crucial to design because right now, design is not reflective of the world, the community, or the customers that it's serving. The latest AIGA census said that there were only 3% Black designers and 70% White. Years ago, I went to a leadership conference and was told that female Creative Directors were something like 22%. I started to see all these stats come up! As we're doing more censuses, I realize there are truly barriers to this profession. The thing that is so crucial in terms of design, is we're designing for people that are different from us. We should have those people represented in our design team, to offer their perspectives, offer their backgrounds, and all of themselves to create things. We've seen this when you design but you don’t have an understanding of who you're designing for. You can create a lot of harm, perpetuate stereotypes, and perpetuate harmful biases that exist.
“The thing that is so crucial in terms of design, is we're designing for people that are different from us.”
Diversity is not just about gender, race, or ethnicity, it's also about neurodiversity, people with disabilities, people with different life experiences, and people that are in the LGBTQx community. All of these voices, ultimately, when you bring them together to design, make better products, better designs that are for everybody. So it's crucial to promote inclusivity in organizations, in the designs, and in the images that you're portraying in your design. Also, really talking about design and the practices that we do of making sure that they're equitable and ethical. Antoinette Carroll talks a lot about how IBM's definition of design is fundamentally the outcome of a process. I think that design can be a really powerful tool for dismantling barriers but it also can be a tool that holds barriers, can be a tool that perpetuates inequitable systems, or is unethical design. It's really important to have a broad group of people designing for these things and talking about these things. Our different perspectives and lenses can offer more insight, but also we need to be cognizant about what we're putting out there and what it says; Is it being inclusive? Is it promoting equity? Or is it helping in some sense and is it ethical?
You mentioned that you are the daughter of immigrants from Nicaragua and Mexico and the third woman of color to lead AIGA/LA. How do you feel your background and life experiences have informed your work, and how you approach design?
I'm the first Latina woman of color to be the President of AIGA LA. I love to mention it because being first is a really strange phenomenon. I talked to a lot of people of color, women of color, especially those that find themselves in this position. You feel a little silly, quite frankly, because you just don't expect that in the year 2021, that AIGA LA which is 50% Latino that this would happen, and then it's like, oh, it's me. I'm the first in. It also feels a little silly that it took this long, 30-plus years that this chapter has been running. I like to mention it because it's something that I know means a lot to the community, to see me especially like the Cal Poly Pomona students, who have a lot of similar backgrounds and experiences as I do. When I teach there, I like to tell them that I'm like them as well. They see my title, see these accomplishments and as we're talking together and ask where I’m from, they're often really surprised to see that we lived in the same places, we were born in the same hospital, have the same family that they do. They can see themselves in me, which is important.
My dad was a refugee at some point, went to Mexico to escape the Civil War and my mom was a single mom for a bit. I know how difficult it can be as an immigrant or first-generation person. The way they've had to deal with learning a new language, leaving their families behind, having limited resources here, etc. Also, my parents are both dentists, which is funny, that I became a designer. It's really important to my work because of how I approach design as something important to do correctly. My family and all our stories, we're all about working hard so that the next generation does better than them. That was a key part of my understanding of my family history, and in a sense, I apply that to my work. I should be trying to create better referrals for the things that I do, where I cannot just for the theoretical next generation of my family, but also for the next generation of designers that come after us. It's made me a better designer because I'm so aware of how important it is to be culturally aware and curious. I know that I was very different from people here growing up and also know that there are so many different types of folks and their backgrounds. I'm always really curious in that sense.
As a manager, it's helped because I also can empathize and relate to people who come from or had to deal with a lot of adversity in their life. It makes me a little bit more patient, and compassionate and also helps me to celebrate people too for like the little things that make them who they are.
”Being culturally curious is when you get to know someone different from you and approach from a point of trying to understand them.”
You mentioned being culturally curious, how do we become culturally curious, especially for people of color?
Oh, that's a great question. Being culturally curious is when you get to know someone different from you and approach from a point of trying to understand them. Before I thought that to be in management and leadership, I had to portray myself in a certain way. “I have to be tough. I can’t let them see me be vulnerable. I can't be wrong. I must always have the right answer.” So all these ideas of management and leadership, I've tried to dismantle in myself. I’ve questioned why I believe it’s that and why I think I have to change. I, as a person who is a woman of color, a woman, and a neurodivergent, have so many things about me that don't fit that mold. Instead of trying to fit it, I try to show that you can exist without it. Without having to defend it. In a sense, I try to lead by example. I also understand that being vulnerable is not a bad thing. I try to lean into that as much as I can because it allows other people to do the same. That's one way that I do that.
There is another way to be more culturally curious. I know that I do things a certain way because of my background or because I'm neurodivergent. I hope that other people give me the benefit of the doubt. I don't always get it, but I try to do the same for others so I'm always asking a lot of questions, trying not to come to conclusions. That's a way in which we build that curious aspect. You could be approaching your communication style, for instance, because of your background. You can approach how you deal with conflicts because of your culture and religion. So instead of us assuming that what they're doing is wrong or ineffective, we have to say, “That's very interesting the way you did that.” or, “Oh, I noticed that you said this a certain way. Can you clarify?” Asking for clarity is something that we don't do very often. So try not to jump to conclusions, it will help a lot.
In your opinion, what are the biggest barriers to achieving equity in the design industry? What are we not doing correctly? What would you like to see change?
I've been thinking about this a lot. AIGA LA created a partnership with the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD) earlier this year. One of the things that we started to do were conversations and career explorations in the classroom to showcase different professions or pathways. We started to do workshops and speak to the teachers to find out what they needed in their classes. One of the approaches is very early on, going into communities that are historically underinvested and talking to them about these pathways because for a lot of folks, especially people of color or first-generation students, design is not seen as significant or as stable a career as, for instance, something in STEM, or something in business. This is just not true, it's the same as being an artist. You can make a great living and be an entrepreneur. There are so many pathways that can lead to a great job and a great career so you can provide for your family. That's the first barrier, just the awareness of it.
The second barrier is completed education. There are a lot of really great art schools that are quite expensive and will lead to, unless you're independently wealthy, a hefty student loan. Other pathways are now coming up in response to this. I think there are very interesting alternative forms of education, for instance, General Assembly which now offers shorter form certificate courses at Community Colleges, where you can learn about graphic design. Quite frankly, you don't always have to go to school for design anymore. There are plenty of free resources or supplementary on-demand courses online. So that's one of the biggest parts. The other part of this—and this is something I'm super excited to share—is that AIGA LA, in partnership with LAUSD, has been asked to help with the special initiatives for the California Department of Education. Our partnership is with the career technical education program, which seeks to create pathways, an intense study in a particular subject or industry, and in the end, provide you with the skills so that you can then go and work after high school at the Arts, Media and Entertainment Career Technical Education (CTE-AME) - one of the biggest programs in graphic design right now. It's not perfect, for instance, it doesn’t have a lot of courses available for user experience design, which is an emerging discipline even now.
We were tasked with helping put together an advisory group to rewrite the entire California CTE-AME curriculum. They want this advisory group to co-create this curriculum together with them and in addition, they're going to be writing the program for a registered apprenticeship program they're building. The apprenticeship program would be something that is a continuation of the CTE program once the student graduates between 18 and 24. Companies can create this apprenticeship program within their organization and the students from this program will then go into these programs to earn money, work, and learn. Apprenticeships, these kinds of pathways, and Public Design Education earlier on are ways to remove barriers and achieve greater equity. It is entirely possible, and I know so many stories of folks who learned design early when they were kids. As soon as they got a computer, they learned how to code. We just need to change the conversation and be more open-minded, about these different pathways, that you don't need to have a degree from a shiny university. We need to be more accepting of people with various backgrounds too. People who come from different industries, or maybe had worked as a teacher before, were mechanical engineers, bio majors, and then go into design; all of these pathways are valid.
So we are focusing on the things that truly matter, in terms of who's going to be a good designer or not, which is their work, how they think, and what perspectives they add to project teams or with clients, as well. These are the things that I'm hoping for us to embrace, honestly.
From your perspective of teaching inclusive, equitable, and ethical design practices, what key insights would you like people to incorporate into their own lives?
I've been teaching since 2019. Number one is you have to have psychological safety within a team to even talk about your experiences, perspectives, religion, and how that all fits in your background. Also, the vulnerability and open space to talk about the gaps that are in our teams, what we don’t have and also what biases we could bring to this, and what biases our clients have. These are the things you need to talk about and you need psychological safety to do that; brave spaces.
Speaking about brave spaces, you have to be very bold. You have to have a healthy practice of, as I was talking about leadership and vulnerability, understanding impact versus intent. A lot of people are very well-meaning and come into user experience design because they have a lot of empathy and compassion and want to do good things and help people. Because we all are humans with a plethora of biases, we have to be aware of how you can have the best intentions, but your impact can be harmful, and practicing vulnerability where you tell someone, “I was really impacted negatively by this, the way that you phrased that, or the way that you treated me or what you said”, and not being defensive. Then being able to understand the impact that it caused and being able to learn from it and move on. We need to be humble too. Psychological safety and understanding impact versus intent is a good start because that's the hard part, right? When you're trying to practice ethical and equitable design, one of the key barriers can be your clients or the projects that you're in.
One of the key insights that I find to be important is being more proactive in the research into the particular history or contexts or business, the market, the area that you're in design, or your new clients. Because you need to understand what are those historically harmful things or institutions or inequities that are perpetuated by the system that you're designing within. It's super important to understand that, be open and culturally curious because then, you'll be more informed about where you are either perpetuating something or can guide your client to a better way of thinking. You want to be upfront about potential sticky situations your client may not be aware of. I'll give you a good example. I worked on a project that was a social network for a startup that was creating a new line of organic baby formula and something that I had remembered from the research was how baby formula was introduced in certain countries to discourage breastfeeding. There's a lot of history of basic colonialism where baby formula was taken away or stigmatized women that were breastfeeding. We see that now today, but there was a long period in time when companies and corporations with the interest of profits and selling baby formulas touted breastfeeding as being not as good as formula. We saw that kind of turnaround when we approached that project. We had to understand that history so that we can be aware and sort of tread lightly or be able to speak up in case something did come up and we were like, “You know what, that's not a good idea. I'll tell you why.”
What's your philosophy around using history to design for current solutions?
We have to understand real history because there are things that are taught to us that maybe we didn't question and it's not until later that you learn the full story. I'm learning more about the atrocities against native folks, and how many things that were so wrong for example, Thanksgiving. It's a great example. Thanksgiving, the history that you were told, is very different from reality. Designing with history in mind is important because there are so many things that were atrocities. In California, the indigenous people for a very long time did controlled burns to manage the land and prevent forest fires. It was a practice that they knew because they were stewards of the land. The native folks have so many practices that were ignored and so now, we've learned that actually what they were doing was managing the land. And that's why we have so many fires here in California because that kind of Land Management was discontinued. After all, a bunch of white folks said, “No, no, we can't do this.” and they were trying to explain why this was important.
Designing with history in mind is about all the ways that we have to unlearn things that were harmful, or things that we're marketing, for instance, diamonds, and how they’re not that rare, it’s just marketing influence. Designing with real history is wanting to understand different cultures and perspectives, and especially learn from native folks and their practices and beliefs because there’s wisdom there for us to learn from.
You were recently featured in a d.MBA article where you talked about designers making business decisions. Can you expand on that?
Yeah, of course. I talked earlier about design-as-a-service, and how much I disagree with it. The reason why I disagree with it is that designers, for a long time, have talked about design around color, branding, and things that are one aspect of it. But it's only interesting or relevant to a designer in the conversation. So when we as designers want to have influence, we want to help our stakeholders make better decisions. Most of the time, design and UX are trying to solve a business need. They want growth. They're looking to improve turnover with customers. All of these are business goals. They come to us because of that and they need design to achieve that growth. So, what we're doing is not a business or design decision because that can be trivialized, or seen as, “Oh, I just paid you to change the color or something.” What they paid us for or what they're getting when they work with us, hopefully as partners, is looking to achieve business goals. When we switch to talking about decisions as business decisions, it gives other people a better understanding but also sees us as more important parts of a business.
How would you describe design’s role in promoting diversity and informing the design community?
It's a designer's role in a couple of ways. First of all, we are promoting diversity in the visuals we create, and in what we put out in the world. So if you're designing a brand story, if you're helping with the campaign, if you are designing a website, you have to show the world as it is, not as it's most convenient to show. We have to not be as lazy as we have been, and do the work to make sure that what we're putting out there is representative of the world as it is. That means if you're designing a pamphlet for a university, it's got to look like the university, not whatever “idealized” version. All that’ll be problematic. We have to make sure that it shows humanity. We need to call out when we're being lazy, basically, “Wow, okay, you hired another white senior creative on your team from your network of friends” or, “You said that you were interested in increasing diversity in your company” or “You wanted to help remove barriers of inequities, but what have you done?” We need to be questioning our employers. They need to be demanding when we have power. For instance, I've seen a lot of speakers refuse to talk at a conference because there are no women, and there are no black folks. That's the power that you can have and collectively we can start to shift and move into this space. Sometimes, it's going to cause some discomfort and some people are going to have to consciously decenter themselves and get out of the conversation. But there's something that we can start checking upon ourselves and see if we're doing the work and moving the dial.
How was the transition of moving from teaching to a nonprofit, to an agency?
I do all those things at once. That's my first, second, and third job. It's interesting.
One informs the other. For instance, working at various digital agencies and/or freelancing gives me the space to explore different avenues. I'm still building my equitable practice, it's such a new thing and it's so difficult because oftentimes, we don't have the power to change inequities. But there are some times in which you can, so there are some small wins and some big losses as well. It's a space for me to explore in real-time with these projects we get from these amazing clients, which gives a way for me to then show an example in my teaching, by showing real examples, not theoretical ones. If they ask me tough questions, I can use my professional experience, “Hey, I was thinking of this conversation today”, or “That's interesting, I was just dealing with this problem a week ago”. It's real, practical advice that I can give that informs my teaching.
Through my teaching, I learn a lot about what the next generation of designers think about, what they're interested in, and what they're worried about in the industry. We have a lot of conversations about what it's like once you graduate. A lot of my students are seniors and so I get to listen firsthand, what are the things that they will need once they get out into the profession. Once they're out of my class, they're out of school. Then they're in this other realm where they are in the profession, and as the professional association for design, AIGA LA, that's where we have to build the program to support them.
So I dip my toe in and get insights from these two different places, the actual workplace working with clients and then there’s this upcoming generation and understanding what they're learning and what they're lacking, what skills they need, what support they need. So it all comes together, in a sense. They all help each other out.
What things about your work have activated you?
A lot honestly. The biggest thing for me has been how much there is that we can do to teach and support people. Many people are so willing to learn and are open to trying to be better designers, more ethical, more equitable, and more inclusive. A lot of them don't know where to start or are overwhelmed. Some are interested in learning a new skill, being more influential, learning how to present well, present effectively, and how to deal with conflicts; the soft skills that are so lacking in design education. All those things are so important and what activates me is seeing this and thinking about ways in which I can try something in my process and maybe that's something I can share, or some folks are in a space where I can learn from.
The greatest thing about Twitter and all of these public forums, for me, is there's so much we can learn from each other and so many stories that we can share. That's the part about design that is exciting to me, all the stories of problem-solving and the learning, the human aspect of that. So that's what activates me, wanting to get to know people more. How can we bring this perspective into our community? How can we realize the full potential of individuals? That's been exciting for me.
Are there any design leaders or mentors that you follow, and why?
Tons of folks. I've gotten to meet some amazing people during the pandemic because it's so easy to jump on a Zoom. Some people that have inspired my work are people like Mike Montera, whom I mentioned. I've gotten to know and have a lot of really great conversations with David Dylan Thomas, who wrote the book Design for cognitive bias. He's an amazing resource. Ariba Johan, who is in our d.MBA program has been someone who's taught me a lot about resiliency and we've had a lot of really great conversations about innovation. George A is interesting and I love to hear how he talks about power and how people closest to the problem don't have power, like those kinds of conversations. Another one is Lesli Ann Noel, who is an associate professor at North Carolina State University. She has this great, critical designer's alphabet, little cards, that talk a lot about decolonizing design. Vivianne Castillo, she's fantastic, I love everything she's done and community-center design. Silas Monroe is also great, I love learning about BIPOC design history, and more about queer history. Those are some people to start.
Are there any people in your life who influenced you into the designer and diversity advocate you are today?
Many of those folks I’ve mentioned have and they kind of speak a lot to that. I spent a lot of time in 2021, listening to the conversations that were being had, not within AIGA, but outside. The conversations that were happening across the world about this particular topic are some of the folks that sort of came into my purview and have informed a lot of what I love to talk about and incorporated into my teaching and my practice.
What advice would you have for people with similar backgrounds to you, like maybe young people of color, who are interested in tech but just feel like it’s impossible to get into it?
The first thing I would say is that they're rare. We need them. We need you. We need more people that are different from the majority. You are going to be so valuable, your perspective, what you have to bring. I like to think of it that way.
“We need more people that are different from the majority. You are going to be so valuable, your perspective, what you have to bring.
I also want to tell them that they should celebrate their differences and understand their perspective and background and what makes them unique. They need to champion those things because we need their voice and their thinking.
For those who are trying to break into tech, start even if you don't get in right away. You can start in an agency or start your own freelancing business or do your side projects. Do some work that you think is significant or tinker around a problem that you wanna solve. Share your ideas, write an article, record something, go talk to people that you think are interesting, slide into their DMs and ask if you can grab a coffee with them or something, and start to reach out to the people that inspire you and that you can learn from. People won't forget that. It's about networking but you should network without expectations. If you like someone's work and want to eventually ask them to take a look at your portfolio, the first thing you do is not immediately do that, but go tell 'em that they did a really good job on this, or you saw their talk and it was really meaningful to you. Do so with expectations and naturally, you're gonna create a networking community and then they'll see what's unique and what you're championing. Hopefully, that will eventually lead to someone letting you know, “Oh, you know, my company's hiring. Why don’t you apply?” Because it really is about who you know because our community is so small. Get to know those folks, celebrate them and an opportunity will come up.
“For those who are trying to break into tech, start even if you don't get in right away.”
What is your favorite thing to do in your free time?
I watch a lot of television.
What is your favorite podcast? What are you currently listening to?
I really like Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. It is so delightful and like light. It's usually pretty funny and not that serious. So that's like my favorite one to just be a little silly.
If you could live anywhere, where would that be? Why?
I would love to live in Mexico City for a little while. I'm scared of earthquakes. I know that I'm from California, so it's a little silly but I would love to live there for a little while and experience the city.
What question haven’t I asked you that I should have?
An interesting question that you didn't ask is, “Do I feel optimistic about people and their diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts?”
What would be your response to that?
Change is really hard for people when nothing happens if you don't try, especially for folks that already have gotten to certain points. People also want to be comfortable. It's gonna eventually happen, things are gonna be moving forward, but it's gonna come down to the next generation kind of coming in and the next generation is gonna look different than what is currently there. Over time, things are gonna have to change. It's gonna be a little uncomfortable sometimes but I do feel optimistic. I don't take people at their word basically, I take people by what they do. I'm looking forward to people doing more things, instead of saying things.
